时间:2008.2.29
地点:重庆501当代艺术基地傅榆翔工作室
人物：张奇开教授与艺术家傅榆翔的对话
记录整理: 李兴强 四川美院学术学系研究生
张: 最近你创作了一些新的作品，能不能结合这些作品谈一下对当代艺术的理解？
傅: 我有一种很简单的想法, 就是以前的路子画得自娱自乐,对自己缺乏挑战, 没有崭新的东西，这样对自己没有交待。而当代艺术包含的范围很深,很广 ,更贴近我们当代生活所面临的一切，基于此,我想努力地靠近并能够融入到当代艺术中来。
张: 重庆这个地方的艺术生态确实存在问题，除了四川美院以外,几乎没有人对当代艺术感兴趣。
傅: 的确是这样。
张: 艺术理想是我们年轻时候的一种追求,通过艺术表达我们的生活态度。而现在，上个世纪七八十年代的理想主义状态早就过去了，旧的模式已经不能再用，它介入不了我们今天的生活，必须重新寻找。这个新模式的系统也可能完全是来自西方，但没有关系，文化是一个通用的场所，大家都可以提取我们所需要的方式——无论东方的、西方的、过去的、现在的，当下的。所以从这个意义上说，要把握好思索的立场，通过艺术来关心当下的生存状态；要进行艺术创作，必须要立足当下，与当下的精神处境发生直接关系。例如我们过去说必须深入生活和观察生活，这个没有错,问题是过去那个时代是带着一种虚构的态度去观察生活，其结果是可想而知的。当代艺术面临的是真实的处境，而不是想象的一种状态,不是虚假的理想主义状态。作为人的社会，它制造了太多的问题，因此艺术家有责任对此保持一种批评的姿态，而不是肤浅地赞颂。
傅: 关于当代，我以前画的《树妖》，《佛历浮想》，《景语》，《藏地•藏地》，《飘灵》等作品, 一路走过来,一直都在想“破”，寻找一种新的叙事途径。你曾经对我说，当代艺术就是挑战极限，做别人没做过的实验，必须跻身前列。在这个过程中我还是很犹豫，很痛苦和彷徨的，虽然画了很多画，常有不知所措的感觉，因为觉得确实很难。比如你在带川美两届油画毕业班的时候，他们的毕业作品展我都看过，有些我很喜欢，有些觉得有点飘浮不定，但我知道它是一个新的系统。很长时间我都还无法去认可它，去解读它。我是从前年年底搬到501来的，黄桷坪这里经常有频繁的展览、讲座；比如在涂鸦一条街开展那次活动中501搞了一个论坛，王林的学术主持, 其中有你、王南溟、邹跃进等的演讲。对于我来说受益匪浅！我觉得众多的学术活动，对于寻找自己，领悟自己，或者证实自己，探求一个最佳的切合点，起了很好的作用。
张: 从你过去画的《树妖》的整个系列，还有其他作品，我都是看过，画的很不错，也有一定的思想，但是我觉得这些作品还是上个世纪的感觉。这是因为上个世纪八九十年代，中国艺术家才开始关心自己，那个时候的艺术家还没有挣脱那个时代的限制。而西方，在19世纪末20世纪初，艺术家就从个人出发，关心自己。这是时代的一个标记，就是浪漫的、理想化的状态，但是一个过去时态。当代艺术是研究整个现代性，研究整个世界，研究当下困境。这和中国上个世纪八九十年代不一样，过去艺术表达的是虚构的精神繁荣,今天的艺术反映的是真实的现实焦虑。
傅: 所以我在找寻的过程中，请你来看了几次。记得你跟我说过，你无法“指路”，但是可以“挡路”。被你“挡”了几次以后，我的信心还是很受打击，但是那一次我很开心。因为开始画了黑白的作品，你看后说：感觉对了。那一瞬间，我觉得自己仿佛登上了一个山峰，暂时脱离了负重的自己，有看到一点曙光的欣慰。
张: 我可能从事艺术的时间更长一点，见的多一些，所以作为一个老师，我面对众多的学生没有办法通过某种方法给他们指出一条行之有效的路来，因为每个人都必须走一条自己的路。但可以“挡路“，“挡路”是什么意思，就是通过我的经验可以判断你做得正不正确，然后让你通行或让你继续寻找。当时看了你画的黑白的那一组画，我觉得能够做成一个系统，而且可以持续发展，于是，让你通行了！
傅: 所以从那时起我有一种轻松的感觉，原来的画注重玩味和精细，为了画画而画，还停留在寻找绘画语言的阶段，和当代现实没多大关系。而现在的这批画找到了跟我生存的当下以及我内心的种种情绪、思想和焦虑的最佳言说图象和呈现形式。
张: 那是因为当代艺术变化万千，它没有一个统一的标准，是用直觉来判断的，而每一个艺术家都是一个独特模式。你过去的画一看就是停留在上个世纪的迷恋中，你现在这批画一看就觉得是一位当代艺术家的作品，因为它们“在场”。艺术不需要停泊，不需要重复，艺术需要推进；创新，那太难了，我们并不一定非要创新，但应该在前人的基础上进行添加。
傅: 自从来到这里，我去过很多的工作室，你的工作室，郭晋、杨述他们的工作室，还有成都何多苓,罗发辉的工作室,记得有次看郭晋画的黑白灰的《乌鸦先生》那批作品，我很喜欢。他就对我说：你也可以画一些黑白灰色调的画。我受到了启发，从那时起我才想画一些黑白灰的画，尝试一下，最先一个人慢慢画,找不到感觉，就像一个人吃饼子一样，吃了1，2，3，4，5，6，再吃到7，才能吃饱，但你必须吃完6才行，而不能开始就吃第7个。重庆有那么多在从事绘画实践的人，但当代艺术，最集中、最有成效的就是黄桷坪这个地方，我觉得它是一个很好的交流互动场所。
张: 它已经成为了一个传统。
傅: 2006年年底搬到这里来以后，无论自己还是其他艺术家来看，我的风格是从这里才改变的。自从来到黄桷坪，作品有了一个根本性转变。
张: 当时你还是冒了很大的风险。
傅: 对,现在我大半年的画，一张也没有买，感兴趣和愿意收藏的很多，尤其是艺术机构和画廊。而我更想沉淀一下自己，主要是想举办展览，比如个展群展等等。
张: 最好不要跟着市场走,要看得清自己的方向。创作出来的作品要成为好作品必须要与这个时代密切联系，关心当下,关心当代性，才能引人关注。虽然艺术作品自身就带有商业属性，但是它绝不是一个单纯的商品。
傅: 原来画的那些画，基本上是自娱自乐，或是自己走熟的一些路子,现在画的时候自己更有一种投入感，会思考一幅画中内涵的品质和诚实，还有一种紧迫感和使命感，考虑这幅画是不是自己必须去呈现的东西。
张: 你除了绘画以外还关心什么问题？
傅: 我关心的还有国防军事、宗教信仰、哲学心理、人文地理、太空奥秘、化石考古以及神秘文化等等。
张: 这些在你的画中都可以体现。
傅: 这些是我长期关注的，我常看国家地理、动物世界之类的东西，在这里面可以有很多意想不到的视觉感受。很多年以前我看到一篇报道，北欧挪威有个地方，有种动物叫旅鼠。它繁殖力特别强,大概一只老鼠一星期之内要繁殖20-30只,繁殖多了怎么办呢？它有自己规律性,有的旅鼠老了,病了,它就会变成桔红色、橙黄色,其目的就是吸引天上的老鹰把自己吃掉,这样还不行,它繁殖得太多,草原草场供养不了它们,那怎么办？它就奋不顾身地朝着一个方向不停地跑,大概需要一个多月时间,不舍昼夜地跑一千多公里,沿途碰到石头,碰到树都不会躲避,不断地撞死；遇到水也不停留,前面的抱成团,后面活着的踩着前面的尸体继续朝前跑,沿途见到什么都不会躲。
张: 自杀式的。
傅: 对,最后跑到挪威一个海岸的悬崖边,义无反顾地集体跳海，全被溺死，场景非常地悲壮。这类的动物故事长久占据我的心绪,很刺激我，使我对它们有特殊的感觉。我画动物就很自然地找到素材和图象，也很容易把它们组合成各种画面。
张: 艺术家的作品与他的思维关系密切，他的知识结构对绘画影响很大。
傅: 这是潜意识和不自觉的，一直沉淀和过滤在我的心绪里。
张: 自然界确实是很神秘的，以前我是一个无神论者，相信决定论，相信自然界是有规律的，这个规律是可以被人认识的。随着自己年龄越来越大，知道的东西越来越多，反而感觉个人的力量太渺小了。
傅: 就像一个诗人说的：我们有神一般的想象，但是只有凡人的翅膀，飞不起来，超然不了。
张: 自然也有一个自己的“神”来管理它们，我是不信神的，但是相信有一种超自然的力量，这个力量是谁在控制？自然选择是怎样形成的？这是一个终极追问。
傅: 现在也遇到一些问题，比如说上帝的存在，现在航天科技发达了，但上帝找不到在哪里，那也是一种迷惘。
张: 肯定上帝找不到，他不会在太空中存在。
傅: 这也类似一个行为艺术。
张: 假如有上帝存在，他也不会是一个具体的规定。
傅: 这和我画这系列画呈现意识也是一样的，也有一个宗教的情怀，是佛教的情怀。佛法无边，这种无边不是说大的无边，是说不是极端的靠任何一边，处于这种虚空之中。所以我每幅画都大量的留白，让它空旷出来，想象更多可以进入的可能。我02年去了一趟九华山，当天晚上就住在那个山上，但是，早晨起来发现后脑门儿有一髻头发没有了，再察看枕头、床单一根头发都没有, 我觉得非常的神奇，当时也很震撼。从九华山回来以后，我看《参考消息》，正好上面有一个报道，美国的旅行者一号,二号航天飞行器,以每小时5万7千公里的速度飞行了12年,即将飞出太阳系,后面的报道更有意思:太阳系是一个什么样的概念？是银河系一千万亿中的一个,银河系是一个什么样的概念呢？是宇宙中一千万亿星系中的一个, 我想我们人类更不知道渺小到哪里去了。那是很虚幻的虚无 ,顿时升起一种无根的感觉,所以在画画当中会自然而然地流露这种情态。
张: 这种宇宙观和对自然的态度会影响你的创作。我觉得人类非常渺小，我们唯一能做的就是用我们自己的方法把艺术做好，用它来抵御对天际的无力遐想。这就是艺术家在面对浩瀚无穷的宇宙施加给我们的虚无压力时获得的小小安慰。
Art Used Against Void Pressure Imposed by the Universe
----A Dialogue between Professor Zhang Qikai and Artist Fu Yuxiang
Time: Feb. 29, 2008
Location: Fu Yuxiang Studio of 501 Contemporary Center of Art, Chongqing
Form: Audio live recording
Notes sorted out by: Li Xingqiang, postgraduate of Academic School, Sichuan Academy of Fine Arts
Zhang: We know you’ve created a couple of new works, and with these most recent creations would you please talk about with us your understanding of contemporary art?
Fu: What I have in mind is a rather simple thought, which made me realize that my previous paintings were too flaring and posed no challenge to myself with no new stuff. And I’m not even contented about this situation myself. However, contemporary art embraces a diversified range in profound depths and it’s a lot closer to the reality we have to face in the contemporary life. Based on this, I’ve made every effort to get closer to and incorporated into the contemporary art.
Zhang: Problems exist in the artistic ecology here in the city of Chongqing, and apart from Sichuan Academy of Fine Arts there is almost nobody really interested in contemporary arts.
Fu: Yes, indeed.
Zhang: The artistic ideal used to be a dream that we pursued in our younger years and we tried to convey our attitude towards life through artistic expression. While today, the idealism that were a popular belief in the 1970s or 1980s was long passed and the obsolete mode was no longer found workable because it finds a hard way into our present daily life and a new approach should be sought after. Perhaps this brand new system of mode completely comes from the west but this should not bother at all. The reason lies in that culture is a universal venue, from where everybody can take the mode that he or she wishes for ------no matter it’s western or eastern, from the past or the present. Therefore from this point of view, it’s very important to stand your ground of ideology and show your concerns about the current status of living through the expression of art; to engage in artistic creation, one must have his or her feet on the ground of reality and get directly related to the current spiritual circumstance. For instance, we used to stress on the importance of going deep among the masses and observing life, which is nothing wrong. But the problem is people in the past epoch did the observing with an imaginary attitude and the result thus obtained was palpable. On the contrary, the difficult situation that contemporary art is confronted with is a real circumstance rather than a state only in someone’s imagination or a false state of idealism. As a society of people, it has created way too many problems and for this reason artists should feel a responsibility on their shoulder to maintain a critical attitude instead of a superficial glorification.
Fu: Regarding the theme of “contemporary”, my previous paintings like Wood Sprite, Buddhist Journey in Recollection, View Talking, Tibetan Land, Tibetan Land and etc. along the way have all manifested an effort of seeking a “breakthrough” and a new approach as well. You once said to me, “Contemporary art is about pushing your limits, about trying whatever others haven’t experimented, and about getting ahead.” During this process, I was all the way hesitant, painful and at loss. Although a lot of my works also came out during this period, I did feel like I would give up because it was really difficult. For instance, when you mentored for graduates of oil painting majors in Sichuan Academy of Fine Arts for two years, I had been to their exhibitions of graduation works. Some of these paintings really impressed me while some others gave off a feeling of floating uncertainty. But I did realize that it represented a new system. It was a rather long period of time before I finally recognized and correctly comprehended it. It was the end of the year before last when I moved here in 501 and there was a high frequency of exhibitions and lectures here in Huangjiaoping back then; for instance in the activity of graffiti in the street, 501 had organized a forum hosted by Wang Lin and sparkled by speeches made by you, Wang Nanming and Zou Yuejin. I have benefited a lot from it! As far as I am concerned, a good variety of academic activities have well served as an optimum cut-in point for finding oneself, understanding oneself or proving oneself.
Zhang: I’ve seen your complete series of Wood Sprite and many others too. They were well done and demonstrated certain thoughts as well. But still I would categorize them into something belonging to the last century and that is because Chinese artists didn’t start showing a concern for themselves until the 1980s or 1990s and artists back then hadn’t broken away from the restraint of that time. While in the west at the turn of last century, artists have started to care about themselves as an individual person. This is a symbol of a whole generation, a state of romanticism and idealism, but a past tense too. The contemporary, however, focuses on the study of the entire contemporariness, the whole world in general and the present plight. This is unlike the 1980s or 1990s when the past art used to be an expression of imaginary prosperity of spirit, which is different from the reflection of real anxieties over reality by today’s art.
Fu: And that’s why I invited you for a visit a couple of times during my process of searching. I remembered you told me that you were unable to “point the way” but could “block the way”. After being “blocked” for several times, I went down with my confidence for a while. But I was also very happy because I started to do black and white paintings since then. You then commented after seeing my works, “That’s it now”. I suddenly felt like I had finally made it to the top of a high mountain and for a while have floated away from myself, really relieved, the kind of comfort when you saw a silver lining of a cloud.
Zhang: I might be engaged in artistic creation for a longer period and seen relatively more in this field. As a teacher facing a great number of students I’m not able to rely on any means to point out a feasible as well as effective way because each individual has his or her own way to blaze. However, what I can do instead is to “block the way”, which means that I’m capable of making the judgment as what you do is appropriate or not and then let you pass or keep searching. When I saw your collection of black and white paintings, I immediately felt that a system is possible and it is capable of sustainable development as well. As a result, I made you pass.
Fu: That’s why I also felt a relief or relaxation ever since then. The previous works all had a focus on a thought-provoking nature and delicacy although with a magnitude of talent and power. The works in that period were created solely for the purpose and pleasure of painting and still remained at the phase of seeking a painting language and therefore had nothing really related to the reality. These paintings, however, have found the best verbal image and representative form for the various moods, thoughts and anxieties of all kinds that are related to my present existence as well as in my mind.
Zhang: The explanation is due to the variation of contemporary art and there is no such thing as a unified standard. It is judged by intuition and each individual artist represents a unique mode. I can tell your artistic creations in the past were an obvious obsession with the last century while your current works can be easily categorized as the paintings by an contemporary artist at glance because these paintings are “on the spot”. Art doesn’t need parking or repetition, but rather a push-forward; innovation can be really difficult to achieve but we may not necessarily need that. But what we can do is a bring-in on the basis of our predecessors.
Fu: Since I’ve moved here I’ve been to a lot of studios such as yours and those of Guo Jin and Yang Shu. When I saw the black and white Mr. Crow series by Guo Jin, I was immediately in love with them. Guo Jin then said to me, “You can also try with black, white and grey tone.” This came as a major enlightenment to me and ever since then I started the creation with white, black and grey tones. The trying began in a fairly slow and laid-back fashion but was not so much of a profound perception. It was like people eating pizzas. You started with one pizza and then moved on to the second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth and the seventh until you feel you’re full. In this case you can never skip the first 6 pizzas and jump to the very last one directly. With a lot of people in Chongqing engaged in painting practice, Huangjiaoping has always been the most concentrative and effective spot in contemporary art and I think it’s a very good platform for interactive communication.
Zhang: It has well developed into a tradition.
Fu: My relocation here was back in 2006 when, in my own point of view or in other artists’ eyes as well, my style has undertaken a kind of change. This change was actually fundamental ever since I moved here in Huangjiaoping.
Zhang: You still put a lot at stakes, didn’t you?
Fu: That was for sure. I didn’t sell any of my paintings created in recent half a year while a lot of people showed interest in collection and among those would-be buyers are most art organizations and art galleries. I would want a retrospect and allow my thoughts precipitate. I’m thinking of having exhibitions of my own like personal exhibition or group collection.
Zhang: My suggestion is you should not misled by the market and should have a clear idea about where you’re going. All masterpieces bear a close relationship with current times and only the contemporariness can catch people’s attention. Although artistic works themselves are commercially labeled, they can never be taken as a pure commodity.
Fu: Those paintings in the past were basically self-entertaining, showing off artistic passion or simply doing what I already felt home at. With my current creation, however, I feel a more strong involvement and will think about the quality and honesty conveyed in the connotations of a specific painting. Besides, a sense of urgency and mission will also start me thinking about the fact that this painting is what I have to present or not.
Zhang: Is there anything else you care about apart from the painting?
Fu: I’ve got a wide range of concerns: national defense and military affairs, religious beliefs, philosophy and psychology, cultural geography, mysteries in deep space, fossil archeology, mysterious cultures, etc.
Zhang: All these can find expressions in your paintings?
Fu: These are the themes that have always captured my attention. I often watch National Geographic and World of Animals channel and they can offer you quite a lot of unexpected visual sensations. It was quite a while since I read a report about this place in Norway in northern Europe where a kind of animal called lemming has a surprisingly strong reproductive capacity. Roughly, an adult female lemming can give birth to 20-30 baby lemmings within one single week. Then what about the over breeding? They have their own regular rule to solve this problem. When some get old or sick, their bodies will turn into a kind of orange color and the purpose for this is to attract the attention of their predators like eagles up in the sky. If this doesn’t work out and proliferation unfavorably continues at a rate too fast for the capacity of the prairies and rangelands, what will these little creatures do then? Quite surprisingly, they will desperately keep running towards one direction. The running may last about one whole month during daytime and at night as well for a total distance of over one kilometer. They will make a daring dash towards anything that comes in their way, including stones and trees without the thought of dodging. As a result, a great number of lemmings will get killed in this way. They will never stop in front of rivers either, in which case the front runners will unite in a clump and those coming up will cross the water by stepping on those dead bodies and keep running forward. They will never dodge along their way.
Zhang: Kind of suicide?
Fu: Definitely. When the masses finally make it to the cliff along the Norwegian coast, they will fearlessly conduct the collective act of jumping off the cliff and get drowned in the sea. That is something tragically heroic. Similar stories about animals keep occupying my mind and stimulating my nerves. I gradually feel a special attachment to them and naturally they have found a way into my works as object matters and images. It is also easy to combine them into different pictures.
Zhang: Artist’s creation has close relations with his or her way of thinking, and the artist’s structure of knowledge is also an influential factor to his or her paintings.
Fu: This is subconscious and involuntary, always precipitated and sifted in my thoughts and feelings.
Zhang: The nature is a great mystery indeed. I used to be an antitheist and always believed in determinism, which states the nature has its own rules and such rules are graspable. As I get older and older with knowledge piling up, I feel my personal power becomes more and more insignificant.
Fu: Just like a poet once put it: we have an imagination that only God possesses but we have only wings of mortals and therefore can never fly up into the sky. There’s no transcendence.
Zhang: The great nature also has a “God” of its own to govern it. I do not believe in gods but I do believe there is a supernatural power. Who is in charge of that great power? How does this power come into being? This is an ultimate question.
Fu: Now there comes a series of questions to tackle, for instance, the existence of God. Space science and technology have seen a great development in the world today but we are instead at a loss as to where to find the God. This is also confusion.
Zhang: It’s for sure that God will not be found because he’ll never exist in the space.
Fu: This has similarity to an action art.
Zhang: If God really exists, he will not be a specific regulation either.
Fu: This is the same as the expression of consciousness through this selection of my paintings. There’s also a religious feeling, a Buddhist feeling to be specific, involved. The power of Buddha has no limits and this kind of “limitless” should not be understood in a confined context of physical magnitude, but instead should be explained as an unbiased position with no extreme preference and be placed in vanity. Therefore, each painting of mine has left a lot of vacant space without any occupation and this is for leaving room for more imagination to come in. I traveled to the Jiuhua Mountain in the year 2002 and took my lodge on that mountain that night. However, when I woke up in the next morning I found a tangle of hair missing at the back of my head. I checked the pillow and bed sheet and found no traces of any hair. I thought it was quite magical and was shocked too. When I came back from my trip, I read an issue of Reference News which carried a report about American aerospace crafts Voyager 1 and Voyager 2 which had traveled at a speed of 57000km/h for 12 years and would soon fly out of the solar system; the latter part of the news coverage is even more interesting: what is the concept of solar system? It is one of the quadrillion of the Milky Way system. Then what is the concept of the Milky Way system? It is one of the quadrillion of the galaxies. It is not worth mentioning how insignificant we human beings are. That is a rather illusive emptiness and it immediately arouses a rootless feeling, which consequently and naturally finds expression in my paintings.
Zhang: This cosmic view and the attitude towards the nature will definitely influence your artistic creation. As far as my understanding goes, mankind are insignificantly small and lowly, and what we can only do within our range of capability is to do art right by relying on our own means and then use it to fend off the powerless reverie about the sky. This is the minor comfort that artists obtain when confronted with the void pressure imposed by the immense and infinite universe
【编辑：刘珍】
